• Team Fortress 2 Classic V3
    5,020 replies, posted
[QUOTE=chandlerj333;50501772]I don't see the problem. The player not only has to think about the rockets speed and enemy's speed, but also the drop distance when aiming. The arc itself is also only useful for blindfire at distances at which damage falloff takes effect. It theoretically takes longer to hit its target as well, as it has to follow the path of the arc instead of a straight line. Having to reload after each shot also decreases the fire rate significantly, so there is a window of opportunity to pass if a soldier is spamming a path.[/QUOTE] Every class in TF2 is supposed to have unique strengths and weaknesses. The Demoman, for example, has indirect fire. Both of his weapons share the [I]unique for him only[/I] ability to shoot things you can't see. It gives him tons of unique strategies, but also hurts him when he needs to fire at someone who is in sight. Giving the Soldier this ability suddenly makes the Demoman less unique, and takes away the Soldier's direct fire, which is meant to be one of his strengths over the Demoman, as he can aim much better than the drunken cyclops. If anything, I'd want this new RPG to stay in Deathmatch, rather than mess up the balance of classes in the game.
[QUOTE=Moonrat;50508032]Every class in TF2 is supposed to have unique strengths and weaknesses. The Demoman, for example, has indirect fire. Both of his weapons share the [I]unique for him only[/I] ability to shoot things you can't see. It gives him tons of unique strategies, but also hurts him when he needs to fire at someone who is in sight. Giving the Soldier this ability suddenly makes the Demoman less unique, and takes away the Soldier's direct fire, which is meant to be one of his strengths over the Demoman, as he can aim much better than the drunken cyclops. If anything, I'd want this new RPG to stay in Deathmatch, rather than mess up the balance of classes in the game.[/QUOTE] Why are a lot of people just jumping on the bandwagon that the new RPG is going to ruin the Demoman? The Demoman has grenades that bounce and are never have the same shot pattern like rockets do. The new RPG only has a precise arch that's the same every time you shoot it. It isn't like we are removing the Demoman, and seriously I don't even know why people think that the Demo will get affected. The RPG just gives the Soldier a different play-style, and the Demoman still works the exact same as he always does. The RPG has less damage and a smaller clip size, so it isn't overpowered compared to the Rocket Launcher. You can always play the Demo, and just because the soldier has a new weapon that archs doesn't change a thing. Look at the Pyro, he has a literal Flaregun, but I hear no one complaining about him and how he ruins the Soldiers or Demos play-style one bit, so why the hell are we so afraid that one little change to the RPG would kill a class. The point I'm making is that everyone is over-reacting and shouldn't jump to such conclusions. I may sound harsh, but I'm trying to make a point. [QUOTE=wauterboi;50509102]Being able to clear an obstructing wall is something that the soldier shouldn't be allowed to do. It's part of his meatheaded design to always go straight.[/QUOTE] The Pyro was originally a close ranged class, now that he has had a flaregun, he can catch targets on fire from a long distance, so I guess that means his class is ruined and that he's too close to the soldier, right? Guess we better keep that to only DM then. The pyro has a flare gun that basically mixes the Rocket Launcher and the Loch n Load into one weapon, I guess that means he's the new soldier demo class. One small weapon isn't changing a class as a whole, if we gave all his weapons an arch, then yes it would.
[QUOTE=Druidlyclean;50509042]Why are a lot of people just jumping on the bandwagon that the new RPG is going to ruin the Demoman? The Demoman has grenades that bounce and are never have the same shot pattern like rockets do. The new RPG only has a precise arch that's the same every time you shoot it. It isn't like we are removing the Demoman, and seriously I don't even know why people think that the Demo will get affected. The RPG just gives the Soldier a different play-style, and the Demoman still works the exact same as he always does. The RPG has less damage and a smaller clip size, so it isn't overpowered compared to the Rocket Launcher. You can always play the Demo, and just because the soldier has a new weapon that archs doesn't change a damn thing. Look at the Pyro, he has a literal fucking Flaregun, but I hear no one complaining about him and how he ruins the Soldiers or Demos play-style one bit, so why the hell are we so afraid that one little change to the RPG would kill a class. The point I'm making is that everyone is over-reacting and shouldn't jump to such conclusions. I may sound harsh, but I'm trying to make a point.[/QUOTE] Being able to clear an obstructing wall is something that the soldier shouldn't be allowed to do. It's part of his meatheaded design to always go straight.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50509102]Being able to clear an obstructing wall is something that the soldier shouldn't be allowed to do. It's part of his meatheaded design to always go straight.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]"so like it ruins the soilder class because it makes him more like the demo"[/QUOTE] No it doesnt, just because one weapon archs, doesnt make his whole class tainted [QUOTE]"But his class is meant to be a straight shot, easy to use, easy to learn, beginner class that can be mastered through means of rocket jumping, adding an arching weapon adds another level of learning that beginner players might have trouble understanding which should be reserved for demoman"[/QUOTE] Arching literally does nothing to his rocket jumping, it works the exact same way as the rocket launcher does with it. Adding arching to the weapon means that players could easily read where the rockets land and how they work. For demoman, his grenades are always shot in an RnG pattern, theyre never the same [QUOTE]"But the soliders weapons are more powerful than the demos, adding the arch to a rocket launcher would make a grenade launcher useless"[/QUOTE] His rockets with the RPG are less damage, not the same. We wouldn't add in archs if it ment that we would ignore the fact of the weapons damage I really don't want to sound harsh, but with what you guys are giving, whats the point of giving classes unique weapons if there's going to be that opinion where "The weapon screws with the character's gameplay, so it shouldn't be in" especially since we haven't had more people test the RPG.
The Loch n' Load and Grenade Launcher function in a way that matches Demo's design. The Direct Hit and Rocket Launcher function in a way that matches Soldier's design. Hell, the Beggar's Bazooka is pretty different while still matching Soldier's Design, with straight projectiles. The second you make that rocket no longer moving infinitely straight and start adding physics to it, it doesn't fit. It would be like making Demo's grenade launcher shooting straight. And I think your whole "sorry but not sorry" thing is pretty lame - if you're going to be bold then be bold. Don't apologize for it. If you're going to apologize it, adjust your tone. Don't append insincerity to your statements.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50509458]The Loch n' Load and Grenade Launcher function in a way that matches Demo's design. The Direct Hit and Rocket Launcher function in a way that matches Soldier's design. Hell, the Beggar's Bazooka is pretty different while still matching Soldier's Design, with straight projectiles. The second you make that rocket no longer moving infinitely straight and start adding physics to it, it doesn't fit. It would be like making Demo's grenade launcher shooting straight. And I think your whole "sorry but not sorry" thing is pretty lame - if you're going to be bold then be bold. Don't apologize for it. If you're going to apologize it, adjust your tone. Don't append insincerity to your statements.[/QUOTE] The RPG's rockets aren't physics based, if you shoot it straight up, it goes straight up and doesn't come back down, there is no arch to it when you shoot straight upward, its not like we are adding in a weapon for the soldier where he throws 'dud' rockets that explode after like 2 seconds. I am really not getting your reasoning behind "adding an arch to a rocket doesn't fit". The rocket, compared to the one shot out of the RL, is more front heavy than the default rocket, so it would make sense if it were to have some gravity to it. The video Nicknine posted was made when he was screwing around with it at first, the one iiboharz posted is the current one. When the update is officially out and when people can REALLY test it, then we could take some real feedback, not some beforehand opinions that you're only getting from two videos. We're happy you want the game to be good, and were happy to take feedback, but it would be better if we received it when it came out.
You're missing the point
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50509509]You're missing the point[/QUOTE] The point is we all asked for new content and now your looking at this content and saying its not good enough, this weapon is exactly what the mod represents "New concepts in the Team Fortress Universe", this weapon is a new concept for the soldier.
[QUOTE=Tacosmell;50475798]here's some goodies for yall [T]https://media.giphy.com/media/xT8qBkNqnazY9y4ud2/giphy.gif[/T] [T]https://media.giphy.com/media/xT8qBw0BX4vCC8lb32/giphy.gif[/T] [T]https://media.giphy.com/media/xT8qBgflkf5seUTG3m/giphy.gif[/T] (also the hat on the civi is just there because I liked how it looked)[/QUOTE] If he ever gets the option to wear a hat, it should bounce up and down slightly in his walking animation. :v:
[QUOTE=cha0s;50509715]The point is we all asked for new content and now your looking at this content and saying its not good enough, this weapon is exactly what the mod represents "New concepts in the Team Fortress Universe", this weapon is a new concept for the soldier.[/QUOTE] There is new content, but then there is shit that just doesn't really work. For example, the Medic's Shotgun. Giving the class abilities he shouldn't have, generally doesn't work.
[QUOTE=Moonrat;50509788]There is new content, but then there is shit that just doesn't really work. For example, the Medic's Shotgun. Giving the class abilities he shouldn't have, generally doesn't work.[/QUOTE] This is completely different Moonrat. The medic shouldn't have a shotgun because its way too powerful for the medic, causing him to be played as an offensive-support class, which he ISN'T SUPPOSED to be. The RPG works literally the same as the Rocket Launcher, but only one difference: Arching.
Do the rockets still have their arc on airblast? Also, here's how I predict the RPG might play out. You know Mortars? Yeah, across longer distances/longer maps, one might be using it like that: and thanks to the arc, a weakness for Soldiers: the mighty wall, is kinda mitigated if the RPG is aimed/used correctly
[QUOTE=LondierX;50510575]Do the rockets still have their arc on airblast?[/QUOTE] Speaking of airblast, what are the chances of it being weapon specific?
[QUOTE=LondierX;50510575]Do the rockets still have their arc on airblast? Also, here's how I predict the RPG might play out. You know Mortars? Yeah, across longer distances/longer maps, one might be using it like that: and thanks to the arc, a weakness for Soldiers: the mighty wall, is kinda mitigated if the RPG is aimed/used correctly[/QUOTE] yes, the rockets have the arc upon being airblasted. [QUOTE=cha0s above]Speaking of airblast, what are the chances of it being weapon specific?[/QUOTE] explain?
like an new flamethrower that does less damage but has airblast, while stock wont have airblast, tbh i just dont like airblast.
[QUOTE=cha0s;50511522]like an new flamethrower that does less damage but has airblast, while stock wont have airblast, tbh i just dont like airblast.[/QUOTE] we'll see
[QUOTE=cha0s;50511522]like an new flamethrower that does less damage but has airblast, while stock wont have airblast, tbh i just dont like airblast.[/QUOTE] Honestly, I think removing the airblast is a very bad idea. In fact, I think having any flamethrower without the airblast, or at least a similar alt-fire method, would not work. As we've seen with the Phlogistinator and the Backburner, having 'no airblast' as a downside just makes it a free upgrade for people who aren't good at using it, and it encourages - if not outright rewards - W+M1 play.
[QUOTE=Barbarossa;50511946]In fact, I think having any flamethrower without the airblast, or at least a similar alt-fire method, would not work. As we've seen with the Phlogistinator and the Backburner, having 'no airblast' as a downside just makes it a free upgrade for people who aren't good at using it, and it encourages - if not outright rewards - W+M1 play.[/QUOTE] This is just wrong altogether. W+M1 play is still punishable without airblast, and the fact that you think the lack of airblast REWARDS W+M1 play is absolutely ridiculous. Any idiot can just move forward while holding the fire key, but they'd just be killed on sight. Players prior to the Pyro update have survived without airblast, they used proper positioning, ambush tactics, and general chaos to their advantage. Airblast gives the Pyro the capability to compete with his 2 midrange threats, the Soldier and the Demoman, take movement away from/enviornmentally KILL enemy players at the proper range, and extinguish friendly teammates. The Pyro was meant to be strong at close range, and with airblast, the pyro's ability to effectively counter Soldiers/Demos with proper airblast play gets rid of his main weakness against 2 classes: Mid to Long range combat, forcing his enemies to either play smarter(shoot floor/wall near the Pyro if at all possible) or switch to their hitscan weapons
[QUOTE=LondierX;50512335]This is just wrong altogether. W+M1 play is still punishable without airblast, and the fact that you think the lack of airblast REWARDS W+M1 play is absolutely ridiculous. Any idiot can just move forward while holding the fire key, but they'd just be killed on sight. Players prior to the Pyro update have survived without airblast, they used proper positioning, ambush tactics, and general chaos to their advantage. Airblast gives the Pyro the capability to compete with his 2 midrange threats, the Soldier and the Demoman, take movement away from/enviornmentally KILL enemy players at the proper range, and extinguish friendly teammates. The Pyro was meant to be strong at close range, and with airblast, the pyro's ability to effectively counter Soldiers/Demos with proper airblast play gets rid of his main weakness against 2 classes: Mid to Long range combat, forcing his enemies to either play smarter(shoot floor/wall near the Pyro if at all possible) or switch to their hitscan weapons[/QUOTE] I think the thing with the Backburner and Phlog is that it rewards W+M1 by removing the airblast, and giving the Pyro other abilities that aren't as useful. Removing the airblast brings the skill ceiling to a disgustingly low level, meaning that as good as you are with the Phlog is as good as you'll ever be. The airblast does take learning, but it's an incredibly worthy tool for the Pyro as you've pointed out. Problem is, when you get the option to drop the best ability the Pyro has, and one that you don't know how to use for a less useful ability that is easy to understand, most beginning Pyros take it. And since these Pyros are beginners, they don't understand proper positioning and tactics, and will simply rush any targets they want to. This is how the Backburner/Phlog could reward W+M1 play, by removing the skill ceiling and not teaching the player a damn thing about playing Pyro. [I](Even though oddly enough the Backburner's main buff is an ambush thing, no Pyro I've ever seen uses that buff.)[/I]
[QUOTE=Moonrat;50515945]I think the thing with the Backburner and Phlog is that it rewards W+M1 by removing the airblast, and giving the Pyro other abilities that aren't as useful. Removing the airblast brings the skill ceiling to a disgustingly low level, meaning that as good as you are with the Phlog is as good as you'll ever be. The airblast does take learning, but it's an incredibly worthy tool for the Pyro as you've pointed out. Problem is, when you get the option to drop the best ability the Pyro has, and one that you don't know how to use for a less useful ability that is easy to understand, most beginning Pyros take it. And since these Pyros are beginners, they don't understand proper positioning and tactics, and will simply rush any targets they want to. This is how the Backburner/Phlog could reward W+M1 play, by removing the skill ceiling and not teaching the player a damn thing about playing Pyro. [I](Even though oddly enough the Backburner's main buff is an ambush thing, no Pyro I've ever seen uses that buff.)[/I][/QUOTE] Thanks for summing that up, that's pretty much exactly what I meant. Simply having no airblast doesn't promote W+M1, but having the choice of either a less powerful flamethrower with an airblast or a more powerful flamethrower without one, that's what gives those people essentially a free upgrade.
[QUOTE=Moonrat;50515945]I think the thing with the Backburner and Phlog is that it rewards W+M1 by removing the airblast, and giving the Pyro other abilities that aren't as useful. Removing the airblast brings the skill ceiling to a disgustingly low level, meaning that as good as you are with the Phlog is as good as you'll ever be. The airblast does take learning, but it's an incredibly worthy tool for the Pyro as you've pointed out. Problem is, when you get the option to drop the best ability the Pyro has, and one that you don't know how to use for a less useful ability that is easy to understand, most beginning Pyros take it. And since these Pyros are beginners, they don't understand proper positioning and tactics, and will simply rush any targets they want to. This is how the Backburner/Phlog could reward W+M1 play, by removing the skill ceiling and not teaching the player a damn thing about playing Pyro. [I](Even though oddly enough the Backburner's main buff is an ambush thing, no Pyro I've ever seen uses that buff.)[/I][/QUOTE] I think airblast lowers the skill ceiling to a disgustingly low level but that's just me.
not to mention its extremely annoying.
what about a cooldown for airblast that increases if you try to chain it? so you could reflect one rocket, maybe dodge the second, and maybe reflect the third
What about Airblast(AB) Jumping? Would that work? And I think that having a default with regular TF2 stats and a Flametrower with stronger airblast would be quite interesting with AB jumps.
[QUOTE=OneFourth;50519910]what about a cooldown for airblast that increases if you try to chain it? so you could reflect one rocket, maybe dodge the second, and maybe reflect the third[/QUOTE] The big downgrade of already doing that as a pyro is that most if not all of your ammo is gone if you keep spamming the airblast. Plus by the second blast the pyro should have closed the gap between themselves and the enemy significantly. Most of the hate against the airblast from people is that it affects their movement, they can get completely blocked or stuck in a corner by a pyro spamming their blast. A solution to counter this that the airblast does less knockback after each blast in rapid succession. For example, first airblast = full knockback second 2/3rd knocback third 1/3rd knockback fourth and onwards no effect at all. What this does is counter frustration from opposing players by being it less intrusive on their movements. It helps counter bad behaviour from pyros as well, teaches them not to spam and conserve their ammo better and use their airblast with more thought. How much it knockbacks requires testing, as well as upping the ammo cost from 25 to 30 or even 35 could probably solve most if not all annoyances from players facing the blast while keeping the ability perfectly viable to use for the pyro.
Wasn't airblast thoroughly discussed before? I remember y'all coming to the conclusion of either leaving it as-is without the player knockback abilities, or just slowing down its refire rate
[QUOTE=NitronikALT;50520980]Wasn't airblast thoroughly discussed before? I remember y'all coming to the conclusion of either leaving it as-is without the player knockback abilities, or just slowing down its refire rate[/QUOTE] Current airblast firing interval is 0.75s but I have a feeling it used to be longer in live TF2.
What if the pyro has to charge the airblast by holding down the right mouse button, releasing it to do the airblast? A very short duration to charge but enough that it means the player needs to time and plan the blast rather than it become a spontaneous thing to spam.
Leave the airblast as it is, it's fine.
If you make any changes to airblast, please make it so it pushes players back in a matter that makes sense, instead of the same exact arc that ignores all existing forces.
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